1. M: So the first ahm, you say, scientific knowledge is based on models, scientists invent it
2. J: Yeah
3. M: So is it artificial, artificial meaning man-made
4. J: I think it is man-made
5. M: But what about the second then, does it show how nature as it is?
6. J: Yeah, it does, but from a
7. M: from our perspective?
8. J: yeah, from our perspective
9. M: So, knowledge is it then always relative, our knowledge, is it always relative to humans, or would we ever have, the next question is about truth
10. J: yea
11. M: So how do you see truth then?
12. J: Well, truth (pause)
13. M: Well, how do you define
14. J: How do you define truth?
15. M: Because over here you say that, ok, humans invent models and equations, and so on, to describe nature, and you said, it may never show nature as it really is, because it is invented, now how does that relate to truth? Here you say, it approximates truth,
16. J: Yeah, because we didn't actually you our equations, reality, sort of thing, whereas approximating it really is through our perspective and, you know, I believe in, I believe in God as you well know, from reading my essays, it is based on His equations, because I think it was based on mathematics
17. M: So you think that the creation as God created,
18. J: It has constants, not based on mathematics and that's why we (believe math?)